540: Siri AI SDK: Finally Making App Integration Work

James 00:37

Oh, it's looking, looking absolutely beautiful. One time, I'm pretty sure I always say like, I'm one of your co-hosts. And then you sometimes chime in. You're like, oh, I'm just, I'm just one of your guests, James. I'm like, no, you're my co-host, Frank. You have been for how many ever episodes?

Frank 00:51

First time caller. Really excited to be here, James, on your show. um I don't know. or Is there a giveaway this week? What else is different? Yeah.

James 01:00

for exclusive episode 540? Well, there is. A giveaway of lightning topics, Frank Krueger. Yes.

Frank 01:09

I love lightning topics. This is when we try to do six topics, five minutes each. um We used to be good at that. Now we're terrible at it. I think we're going to try it again this time. We might. Remember when we did a timer and we actually paid attention to the time? Maybe we can do it. Who knows? I believe in us.

James 01:24

We'll see. Well, you got to get to the airport. So that means we actually do need to stop.

Frank 01:29

ah

James 01:29

the podcast at certain times. But if you're brand new, to episode 540 for the very first time every 10 episodes. Or so, just about. 100 % accuracy.

Frank 01:39

nothing

James 01:39

We do. five or six or seven topics. We try to spend about. five minutes each on them. There's sometimes things that have just been top of mind, but not. Don't quite make a fool. episode worth of content. And sometimes there's been stuff in the back pocket that we've been having to think about for a while or they're brand new things as well or things in our life. So we open up a Apple note and then we. get go to town and, um,

We just do it. So Frank, I guess.

Frank 02:05

Yeah.

James 02:06

Kick us off.

Frank 02:06

oh i get topic number one james have you heard of this thing called siri

James 02:12

Ah. Um... Hmm.

Frank 02:14

Maybe.

James 02:14

I think that's a button that I never press on my actually, actually randomly this morning I was on my Mac.

Frank 02:17

Yeah, no.

James 02:21

MacBook Air. And. i was I was implementing a new feature. in Tiny Clips for captioning.

Frank 02:28

Uh huh.

James 02:28

for clip for taking a video and then doing the getting the srt from it And. Usually like whisper, you can just like get the whisper SDK, download them. I'll do a thing, but actually inside of. like all apple machines with I think M1s and macOS.

Frank 02:42

Mm hmm.

James 02:44

26 and above, just have it built in, just built in.

Frank 02:47

Sure. Sure.

James 02:47

um It's in there.

Frank 02:49

Yeah.

James 02:49

Um, So. I was like. It wouldn't work, it wouldn't work, and I couldn't figure it out. I mean, I did figure it out because like the clip I was testing had no audio, so that was the problem. But um and the the I was like, maybe I need to turn on Apple Intelligence. So then I clicked on the Siri button.

Frank 03:02

Oh yeah.

James 03:03

And you don't, by the way. You don't have to. But, um...

Frank 03:06

Yeah.

James 03:06

But that that was me this morning accidentally clicking Siri to... Two. Be like, oh, sorry, I'm going to turn you back off now.

Frank 03:14

I think that's how most people interact with Siri is accidentally. At least that's me because Siri up to now.

James 03:17

Oops.

Frank 03:20

And maybe a little bit at all. It was really dumb. But now we have a thing called Siri AI. And I was making fun, I have been making fun, I continuously make fun of... um the fact that we haven't been able to do good app integration with Siri AI. So we've had local models on the phones for a long time. iPhones have had neural engine for a long time, but I was complaining that they haven't given us a good way to interact with Siri. And especially in the more standard ways that we've all adopted in the agentic world, meaning basically... Um, skills.

And. ncp servers tools tools. MCP servers are just ways to inject tools into an agent. Well, all that's changing. Finally, hashtag finally, Apple is releasing the um Siri AI SDK. And I have to apologize to everyone because I don't remember exactly which version of Xcode you need for this, but I believe it's Xcode 27. three i believe but it might be in one of the earlier ones apple has like

James 04:20

yes

Frank 04:24

10 different betas out right now it's all very confusing at the moment but just just shop around and you will discover this thing called the siri ai sdk and in it we can finally do proper app integrations.

James 04:37

Mmm.

Frank 04:37

So that's where... um You can declare tools. that your apps provide to Siri. So this is like the Siri through the Siri app or someone just using Siri. So there's kind of funny different modes if your app is in the foreground. and you invoke Siri, it knows your app is in the foreground. And we'll pick up like skills and tools. Or if you're just chatting with Siri, you can tell it, hey, use the iCircuit app and make me a circuit that does blah, blah, blah. and it can like invoke tools.

ah And there's also, if you have a live activity, your app gets a little bit of preference too. But you can always, from Siri, whatever, say, do this thing in this app. And you can it's also a nice way to like share data through apps because you could say, like get this data from tiny clips and move it on over to... I circuit. I don't know why. Don't do that. That'd be weird. But you could.

James 05:32

You could say you could say take a video with tiny clips. Um, in of iCircuit and then take that image and then upload it and send an email to James about how cool this was.

Frank 05:40

Sure. Yeah. There we go. worse It's better than ordering a pizza like all the AI demos do. But it's super cool. um We've been able to do app intents for a while. And that was the old way to integrate with Siri. And basically, Apple just extended it. So there's a new app intent called... a tool and so basically you can just declare a bunch of tools that you're app can execute.

James 06:07

Hmm.

Frank 06:08

And that's honestly... Pretty much all you need to do, I need to figure out the .NET side of this to make it all work, but on the Swift side it's pretty easy. We'll figure something out in .NET to make all this work because I want it. um And then if the tools are good enough, you can have skills, which are your standard agentic skills that we've all gotten used to. Just a bunch of markdown, basically telling it how to use the tools correctly or adding other little like skills.

ah to um the thing. But it's pretty cool. You create um a skills bundle. which is just a bunch of Markdown files. So I don't think we have support for that in .NET right now, but that one's pretty easy to add. We just, because it's... Just a directory full of Markdown files. And then... um The app intents, we'll have to figure that out, the right way to do that in .NET. But I'm excited for this because, um well...

i've I've just been complaining on the Mac side. that our our apps should be MCP servers. So finally, our apps can be MCP servers.

James 07:11

That's interesting. Um, I mean, one, this is really cool. and I have a lot of ideas. For things such as... um you know my cadence for example this is great because i could say hey go start a new ride stop a ride could because it can run the background it has live activities it can do all this stuff i could say hey can you go take all my you know rides from this month

Frank 07:26

Mm hmm.

James 07:32

And then go create, you know, extrapolate that data and then send me an email report or whatever. Right. And it has that data. It could go give us, I could easily expose all that data. right from my cadence which is great same thing with my stream timer like start a timer, add a minute to add a minute, stop a minute, do a thing right from do this thing, to whatever it is, right? That would be really cool.

The fascinating part for Tiny Clips that I want to get your opinion on here. Hmm. is Like. I recently, I have it in beta right now, aka if you pull from main, so alpha. is i I created my own. mcp server that you like run locally that you connect to it

Frank 08:10

Oh, right. Sure.

James 08:11

Yeah. So I have a tiny clips agent that you run.

Frank 08:12

Yeah.

James 08:15

And it's a pairing agent for all intents and purposes. It allows you to be like, hey. I'm like the but it It allows it to like sit on your machine and run the DNX commands. like It is the MCP server that talks to the Tiny Clips app, right?

Frank 08:25

Yeah.

James 08:28

Um, I guess I could have like embedded it directly into the tiny clips app, but this allows it to like sit in the background without doing anything. I don't know. Copilot recommended I do.

Frank 08:38

Oh, geez, yeah.

James 08:39

But anyways, this allowed it to be cross platform. So you run like a one DNX command. on mac or windows you and and then boom it like communicates and it pairs up

Frank 08:47

Right.

James 08:48

So I have this. And then what's cool is I created a plugin. And the plugin has the MCP server and it also has a bunch of skills. and so it has a bunch of tools and has a bunch of skills and um knows how to talk to it

Frank 08:56

Mm hmm. Yeah. Perfect.

James 08:59

So Tiny Clips now, I can now go to any AI agent. And so I can go to my clods, I can go to my copilots, I can go to my codexes, I can go to whatever that can speak to it. My VS codes. And I can say, hey. I want you to take a screenshot of iCircuit and i want you to annotate on xyz add a i emoji add a things and it'll just go do it

Frank 09:15

Mm hmm. Yeah, cool.

James 09:21

Right. Which is so cool. So the question is, Like, is that the right route? Or I'm assuming with the Siri AI kit. You basically, if I wanted to have this app, which is kind of a niche case, right? This is your Figma. This is your stuff that already has MCP servers that are talking to the apps.

Frank 09:33

Mm hmm.

James 09:36

You'll still need those because. your codexes and your vs codes can't talk to the siri ai right so this is just so i'm gonna have two of them basically inside the app, right?

Frank 09:40

Yeah.

James 09:46

Yeah, that sucks.

Frank 09:47

Yeah. Well, it it sucks and it doesn't. I mean, it sucks that Apple didn't just adopt MCP. because obviously they know how to Xcode literally has an MCP server built in.

James 09:55

It does it. Yeah.

Frank 09:57

So you kind of wish they'd gone that route. But you also see... Siri has done app intents for a long time and app intents have been the way for apps to communicate with each other.

James 10:03

Yeah.

Frank 10:07

I'm sure they have a lot of sandboxing and hashtag security around all that. junk. um But yeah, from the developer point of view, it would have been nice if they just exposed it all as an MCP server for real, c like using the real protocol. But the good news is it's just a very software interface thing, right?

James 10:20

Yeah.

Frank 10:24

You can have both your MCP server and the app intents calling into the same. effective tool.

James 10:30

yeah

Frank 10:31

And I think if we come up with a .NET solution, we should do exactly that. Like it should be. both it should have the mcp server and fulfill the Apple series side for all that.

James 10:36

Same code. Yeah. What?

Frank 10:41

it's It's Apple being Apple. Of course, they did it their own way.

James 10:44

Yeah. I mean, I like it. I mean, obviously tiny clips is pretty complex. um I have like all sorts of tools and specific things that you'd want to do, but a good example would be. Like I can, if I implement this in tiny clips, I can say, Hey. see Peace.

Frank 10:57

Yeah, sorry everyone.

James 10:57

Dingus.

Frank 10:58

Yeah.

James 10:58

hey dingus and mine's off hey dingus like Can you go do this thing? And then. open local morph and then convert that into a 1080p 720p and 480p and then can you go like dump it in this folder and then oh actually i have the youtube mcps can you go also open the YouTube app and then upload the creator portal.

Frank 11:15

Mm hmm.

James 11:15

or like That'd be really new neat workflow, right?

Frank 11:17

Yeah.

James 11:18

And then boom.

Frank 11:18

and And that should work. You just have to click um um the permission dialog 5 ,000 times and restart the app twice because of the broken macOS security model.

James 11:23

and ah God. I love it.

Frank 11:31

But yeah, I Overall, nitpicks aside, like this is what we all want. We we want agentic integrations. Yes, it would have been nice if they did an MCP server. But yeah, this is finally going to join it all together. And that's what's important.

James 11:43

I mean... It... It's harder with like, it's, you know, makes more sense on the desktop where I'm like, I'm connecting MCP servers on my desktop on the phone. a little bit trickier.

Frank 11:51

yeah

James 11:51

They could can they could they could merge it together. like a connector.

Frank 11:56

But I'm pumped.

James 11:57

Just saying. Ba-da-bam. Well, that was kind of two in one, which is good. So that at least like covered one of mine, not one of mine fully, but kind of, but we'll come back to tiny clips.

Frank 12:06

Okay.

James 12:07

But I at least wanted to talk about some of this agent mode stuff that I was doing, which I thought was really fascinating, like turning your app into.

Frank 12:08

hu

James 12:13

making it agent aware. So a good example you just had, which I'm kind of interested in. is God, this is just a whole freaking podcast now.

Frank 12:21

Yeah.

James 12:22

What? Like imagine I circuit to your scenario. So you have I circuit. Wouldn't someone also want to just open? Codex, Claude, Copilot, and also just say, hey, go draw this thing in iCirc and it would just do it. So I'm just saying.

Frank 12:36

Yes. Yeah.

James 12:37

Wouldn't. Did Is it too late almost? is So, I mean... I think the win here. Here's the win for them. I think. We stated it earlier. The win is. connecting apps together.

Frank 12:52

Yeah.

James 12:52

Because people just install the apps and it just works compared to, I got to configure this MCP stuff and do a plugin and do a thing.

Frank 12:59

Mhm.

James 12:59

So I think. It makes sense in that regard. So I'll give it a I'll give it a I'll give it a pass for now. Because I do think that the ease of use for people that are just like, I install apps and then it just does stuff, then that's pretty cool. Yeah.

Frank 13:12

Yeah.

James 13:12

Okay.

Frank 13:13

And if you think the current state we're in right now, let's say I'm a ChatGPT user and i'm ah I'm a normal person, not a developer. So I'm just using the free account of ChatGPT. That has a limited number of OpenAI approved integrations or connectors or whatever.

James 13:27

ah Yeah.

Frank 13:29

But I go and buy a new iPhone. And it has Siri AI on it. I download an app. Siri AI is effectively free. I mean you're not going to hit its limits.

James 13:39

yeah

Frank 13:39

It'll run locally if it needs to. and it'll use whatever credits you have. It's just a nice... I think we in the developer world spending $200 a month on silliness are not representative of the real world. In the real world, people are not spending $200 a month on agents.

James 13:56

Yeah.

Frank 13:56

they're buying a phone and this is going to serve them beautifully because they can start getting agentic features. that we developers have been taking. but abusing for the last year.

James 14:07

no That makes sense. complete sense. So. Yeah. I agree. I agree. um All right. We'll talk about something else that people are buying. iPhone duos. if I think they bought them for about a day or two.

Frank 14:22

Oh, I think they're pretty sold out. No, I think they're doing well. I mean, aside from Foldgate and all that, you know there's a few defects out there.

James 14:25

Hmm?

Frank 14:30

But um my my app is still in review, but I finally added iPhone Duo support and it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought.

James 14:36

oh

Frank 14:39

um things mostly worked i just wanted this is my just a little bit of venting and kind of relieved that it wasn't actually so bad. The simulator works pretty well. um There are so many permutations of screens you have to go through though. Open. partially open. ah Closed. um and then landscape and portrait for all of those. And guess what? The number of items you can fit on the toolbar is different for every single one of those permutations. And um Apple is very clear in all their docs. You shouldn't be measuring the screen. You should be using the trait collection to decide but like what elements are available. But the trait collection is not. granular enough and so as an app developer i've just had to test it left and right and so they added a few nice things like the toolbars you can give priorities too different. items on the toolbar. But then the annoying thing is if you have items grouped on the toolbar, then it takes the highest priority item in the.

Group. So you can't like have some low priority items and high priority items in the group. The group either shows or it doesn't show.

James 15:50

m

Frank 15:50

And Apple like prioritizes their stupid Wi-Fi indicator instead of like your toolbar item. So i found I found a few of the sizes really annoying to deal with, especially the closed landscape. You get like... three or four toolbar items. And if you're grouping things to make it look nice, you get even fewer because they have to add stupid amounts of padding and margin to everything. So i I want to say it's both been excellent because it was a pretty good development experience. That simulator has been working great and everything, but it's also been frustrating because you really have to take, you you can't exactly follow their docs. because...

Their docs assume you have. the world's dumbest, simplest app in the whole world with no interesting features. um you really have to test every scenario i find the size classes aren't perfect But the biggest one is, boy, I didn't realize how many of my apps. still rely on app delegates, main screens, and UI windows. And the big one for me has been switching everything over to scene delegates. And I should say it's been pretty seamless. It's been pretty easy doing that.

But. I forgot how many apps I have and how many don't do that.

James 17:02

yeah

Frank 17:03

And so it's just been a lot of work on my side. Not the hardest work, but... quite a bit of work. And it's funny, it's a hard crash if you don't do that conversion. If you compile with the 27 SDK and you try to run one of these apps with an app delegate. Uh-uh. Apple's having none of that. And that applies for Mac Catalyst too.

James 17:23

oh yeah That was where I.

Frank 17:24

Yeah.

James 17:25

I told you. i had I had switched to... Um, building. and compiling for mac os 27 and that was the very first thing i didn't test or whatever i had i had some some app that just for some reason hadn't added the i think it's because i was using i think in the new templates for .net maui it has all the uic and stuff but i had used one that didn't or whatever it's a very easy fix if you like your app's not that complex obviously you just add it in there but

Frank 17:46

Right. Mhm.

James 17:51

I was like, oh. yep rejected back thanks cool bye yeah i think that was local morph maybe or one of the other ones that got rejected well that's really fascinating did you use any i've i noticed about the week that things came out i saw on twitter that there was just like tons of people coming out with like custom plugins and skills and

Frank 18:08

Right.

James 18:09

you know whole like you know just use this kit and it'll do every permutation all the things just like tell your agent Tell your agent to do this thing. and like follow these guidelines? Did you use any of that stuff? Or would you artisanally craft these? form factors.

Frank 18:23

um I didn't use rando off the internet skills. I did not do that. But what I did do is Xcode has skills built in and they have an easy command you can run to export all the skills to text files. um And those included a lot of migration information for SDK 27. So I exported all the skills from. Xcode then went through the painful thing of figuring out where every stupid agent wants their skills inserted because I normally have like my own centralized location for skills and everything's configured to use that but these were

James 18:54

yeah

Frank 19:00

temporary skills that I didn't always want to be in there. It was like, Oh, where where do I put like these temporary skills?

James 19:05

Yeah.

Frank 19:05

You know, I'm trying to figure that nonsense out.

James 19:06

Yeah.

Frank 19:08

So I did use skills, but I just used Apple's built in ones, mostly just because I trusted them.

James 19:14

Okay.

Frank 19:16

And I read through them real quick. And they they weren't very demanding, honestly, like they weren't like special tool use or anything like that. And I didn't change them at all for .NET. So I was doing everything on the .NET side.

James 19:27

Hmm.

Frank 19:27

And the agents are smart enough. They're like, oh, yeah, these are skills written for Swift. But like it it knows the translation layer from .NET to.

James 19:33

It knows.

Frank 19:35

whatever, you know, so it was fine. It did a surprisingly good job. I was very clear. like I worked on my prompt a few times. like I want a minimal. change do not move code unless you absolutely have to move code like we can over time refine the setup But. because i've been writing apps since like iOS 2. The app delegate. static methods in the app delegate, that's my dumping ground. for where I put all my global functions, any code that needed to share some code, they just call app delegate dot.

James 20:02

hi

Frank 20:09

And I'm like, don't move that code. Just.

James 20:12

Yeah.

Frank 20:12

Leave it there. Leave it. Leave it. Don't touch it. Don't touch it. It's fine. It's fine. So I just put a lot of, like, qualifiers. Like, I want you to upgrade the app. Yes. but only move the things that absolutely need to be moved. And then testing was actually pretty easy. The hardest one I found was iCircuit has external monitor support. and that's a whole different like scene mechanism and Apple honestly just doesn't document it. very well like it's kind of one of those features they've kind of abandoned to be honest mostly uh

Which is a little frustrating because all the docs are basically written in for iOS 3. And so none of those docs have been translated over. So a little finicky, things like that. So I did the gross thing of... I just disabled the feature for now because I looked at my logs and I think one person in the last three years used that feature.

James 20:59

oh Yeah there you go, that's a good idea.

Frank 21:05

So I'm like, I hate being that person that like, I'll wait for the bug report. But for that case, I'm going to wait for the bug report.

James 21:11

Yeah.

Frank 21:11

And I can add it back. But I just wanted to get Duo support out because the phones are out there. And you you made a joke, but I think they're they're vaguely popular. I think the price is keeping people away.

James 21:21

Yeah.

Frank 21:23

but they're popular for the people who can afford them.

James 21:25

they're They're popular enough if you can find one. Yeah, I should actually. Holiday. hack I should. pre-holiday hack thanksgiving hack i don't know i should definitely

Frank 21:32

instance instance Yeah.

James 21:34

get to work on this, that is for sure, at least on my at least on my cadence, which is my... number one app. So I should probably do it and that won't be pretty.

Frank 21:41

Mm hmm.

James 21:43

That would be pretty straight. because that one is just a Swift app.

Frank 21:45

Yeah.

James 21:47

So it should be pretty straightforward. So.

Frank 21:49

And if you only have... four toolbar items or four tabs like your app's going to convert just fine.

James 21:53

Yeah. No, that...

Frank 21:56

like just Just do it it.

James 21:57

That's all.

Frank 21:57

It'll be fine.

James 21:58

Yeah.

Frank 21:58

yeah it's

James 21:58

That's all I have. Yeah.

Frank 22:00

Complex UIs are harder, but obviously.

James 22:01

Well. the The one cool thing, if I really wanted to do it, there's this. um feature that I stole from Scott because he built a website and then I just put his website. natively into my app, but it's called like kind of landscape. it's like a It's kind of like, ah what did I call it? ah it's Let me open my app and let me see what I called it.

Frank 22:18

ha

James 22:19

I don't know. I vibed i vibed it really quick and to impress him. It's called Scenic, so Scenic Rides. So basically there's like all these YouTube videos of like scenic rides that are just bike riding, right? So you click on one, so you connect to your sensor, you click on a video and it'll play it.

Frank 22:29

Cool.

James 22:34

And I had to. There's only so much room to play a video and also...

Frank 22:37

Yeah.

James 22:38

you know, do stuff. So it was a little bit tricky, especially because like embedded embedded videos for YouTube are really, you know, finicky.

Frank 22:39

Yeah.

James 22:44

So. This would be neat because ideally I have a lot more screen real estate that I could play around with.

Frank 22:49

Yeah.

James 22:50

on it i could have a video playing on one side and then another you know the the numbers and stuff on the other side or

Frank 22:54

Yeah.

James 22:56

Just.

Frank 22:56

It's a tricky size, to be honest, because when it's fully open, it's not even as big as an iPad mini, I don't believe. Like, it's a weird, you got to make some weird UI decisions. Like, I realized most of my modal model dialogues that pop up full screen, even the sheets, they just didn't look right. they didn't behave well. So I actually switched a lot of code over to popovers.

James 23:17

Yeah.

Frank 23:21

And popovers are not like an...

James 23:21

Ooh, nice.

Frank 23:24

iPhone OS thing. They're more of an iPad OS thing. So I i added... a tiny bit of tricky code where under certain some certain certain circumstances, I will do popovers just because on an opened duo. They just look better. They act better, the app.

James 23:41

Yeah.

Frank 23:42

is more rational. so It's tricky because... um Sometimes you want iPhone-y stuff and sometimes you want iPad-y stuff. So it's a real blended device I found. And I'd find... i Making that decision, what should be a sheet? What should be a form sheet? What should be a popover? That was kind of the harder choices. to make with it and then detecting that scenario correctly. But the good news is it made me audit all that kind of code because I realized I had a few funny little bugs where even on iPad OS going from like full screen to a narrow window.

James 24:10

Yeah.

Frank 24:17

i I was actually not. being very graceful about a few little transitions so it made me clean up that code a little bit so it's a little bit of a good audit of your own UI.

James 24:24

Nice. Yeah.

Frank 24:27

to make it work.

James 24:28

I like that Good, good, good I think that's another thing, too, because especially if your apps have grown over time or they've grown over time with your agents, they're not necessarily always following those bre practice best practices.

Frank 24:30

Mm hmm.

James 24:38

This will force it into it.

Frank 24:40

Yeah.

James 24:40

Um, Well, I wanted to call a little quick one. here. Back from last week's episode on the Universe Recap. um I've spent... So I've spent a few, there's a few things. Yeah. big change that I've had in the last. uh man month or two. So I jump around all of our tools. so Right now, I have sessions going in the CLI. I have VS Code open.

Frank 25:02

Heh heh.

James 25:02

I have Visual Studio open. I have the web open. I was on a walk today. I was kicking off a session from my phone. like I got down to my computer, opened it up in VS Code from there. um I'm all you know in the app all the time. It just depends on the day of what I'm looking for and how of what projects I'm using. And I've been spending quite a lot of time in the agent's window. which um has a lot of similarities to the Copilot app, obviously for multi-session, multi-space, but with all your VS Code stuff.

and what i really like about it is like all my themes obviously pick up and run there but also extensions and all this stuff all pop up and I have canvas support. So they filled in a lot of these gaps of the cool new stuff, all the, the, the shiny bits that are there.

Frank 25:39

Cool.

James 25:41

So and it's really nice. I'm on windows. So it's really fast. And I really like that, um, a lot. But the thing that I've been doing. um is that they've obviously added tons of features in the last week with all this cloud sync stuff, which has been a real game changer for me. But the thing that has really changed in all these services that I work is. Copilot. fusion now i know i did an entire podcast on hydrofusion We did want an auto.

Frank 26:01

ah

James 26:04

I talked to Julia at Universe and she had a whole session on Copilot Fusion. I think you can watch it on the site. But. Co-pilot So... There's three modes. Standard, which is auto, high, and max. So think of like I just want to do something standard like quick to the point. It's gonna pick a small you know, model. It might pick a soul model. It might pick a Luna model. It might pick an MAI model. It just really depends.

But then if you want more of this orchestration. right like i have a chunk of work to do right this is going to be a longer thing like right now i'm implementing Annotation overlays for videos that have to be like rendered out on tiny clips.

Frank 26:35

Yeah.

James 26:42

That's a pretty long running thing for it to like implement all these things across Mac and windows needs to think and needs to delegate and needs to review his plan.

Frank 26:45

Hmm.

James 26:50

just high. I haven't really done max too much because max just just big, huge models.

Frank 26:51

Mm hmm.

James 26:55

And I'm trying to just use how she said high is like the go to I've been using a high.

Frank 26:58

okay

James 27:00

Non-stop. Just... especially for long running sessions where I just don't even care. and just let it go and it is Scarily. impressive and scarily like really affordable. And I know there's a 30 % off deal going on right now, but.

Frank 27:11

nice

James 27:14

Even regardless, I'm like. it's crushing some stuff man it's like destroying. Code.

Frank 27:21

Yeah. I... and And. And. Do you know what kind of modes it's in? Because I keep thinking about like the critique versus the orchestration. like I think we've both been big fans of the critique. style or the rubber duck, whatever you want to call it, when a model is comparing against another model.

James 27:36

Mm hmm.

Frank 27:37

And that's still a part where I don't do that enough. myself. I still do kind of hand code reviews.

James 27:44

Yeah.

Frank 27:44

So that's the part I'm actually most excited about with Fusion. I know like... The money, obviously, is a big part of it. But for me, it's like i don't I haven't been taking enough advantage of critiquing and auto-reviewing and stuff like that.

James 27:56

Yeah.

Frank 27:57

Have you noticed it doing much of that or is that kind of hidden away from you?

James 28:01

I would say I often go into plan mode, even with high where it's like planning and critiquing its own plan and like.

Frank 28:07

Mm-hmm

James 28:07

the plant is like really good it's like it's like way better the questions that ask are really involved like i feel like the quality of responses I'm getting.

Frank 28:09

Cool.

James 28:15

I would say if I'm just sending a prompt off. and doing the thing. it could just pick out whatever it wants it doesn't really matter it just does the thing

Frank 28:21

Mm hmm.

James 28:22

I haven't really. I haven't. actually what because everything happens so fast. So I i can honestly tell you that I haven't stopped. to to verify if it's one shotting with one model or doing the critique or the other one.

Frank 28:35

Right.

James 28:37

Um, Because it all just kind of happens fast. you know.

Frank 28:41

Yeah.

James 28:42

And I would say that. I'm not sure if I Like do or don't care. I'm not really positive, right? Because. I'm going to get a result at the end of the day and I don't even get to pick which mode it's in. So it's going to try to figure out the best result. So. i'm interested to like down the road if that evolved and i pay more attention to it But I feel like I'm just like and go and and I just like I'm hoping and picking that it. figures out the right thing you know what i mean

Frank 29:06

Mm hmm. Yeah.

James 29:07

So...

Frank 29:09

I don't know. It sounds like a winner.

James 29:11

Very good.

Frank 29:11

i've been I've been in kind of a funny mode. I've just been doing the idiot thing of just running everything through Opus. And I think I just go through phases like that sometimes. you know you're like

James 29:21

Yeah.

Frank 29:22

right now I'm trusting Opus, you know, eventually it'll break my trust and then I'll switch over to some other one.

James 29:24

Yeah.

Frank 29:27

But I like the idea in Fusion, to're like, well, I don't know what model I'm using, so I can't really blame any particular model. So part of me wants to do it just to free my mind in that way.

James 29:36

Yeah. I think that I Yeah, it's it's a good I've. I've mostly... Yeah. Stop picking. I was using soul six one for a long time and I was obviously picking like Luna for a lot of things.

Frank 29:49

Mm hmm.

James 29:49

And I think it just depends on the day of like what I'm coding. Right. Like if I'm doing like UI work, like. ui work ui work like i will say

Frank 29:57

Yeah.

James 29:58

Like it doesn't actually get any better than Opus. Like it's just too good at UI work. Now.

Frank 30:03

Right.

James 30:04

That being said... So it was very expansive. But. Like. fusion even on like high or max or whatever Like. blends in these different tools and it will blend in a little bit of Opus with a little bit of others. So it blends these tools in. So you're getting a little Opus in there.

Frank 30:19

Right.

James 30:20

You're getting a little bit of this. and not for all the the context of it. so I think that that. When I did this thing recently. example was i picked just like a normal like i think maybe the soul 6 one i was doing just some ui work and um didn't turn out great. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to try Copilot Fusion High. And I said, here's what I want out of this. It was captions. So you can see the caption, you can edit a caption, I had like this kind of design in my mind of editing, and there's not that much UI to play around with.

And it like. one shot at it, like really good.

Frank 30:51

Yeah.

James 30:51

And I was like, wow, this is like, you really thought it even pulled in. Like, it's like, oh, I'm going to pull in. the the win ui community toolkit to make like the segmented controls better i'm du i was like all right bro i see what you're up to you know what i mean it it was and it was really good like it made this whole trade-off it was like

Frank 30:59

Oh cool.

James 31:07

I was implementing the captioning techniques and it was like, Hey, like. Let's make some decisions. This is in the planning mode. Let's make some decisions together. It's like, hey, like. let's talk about mac os and it's like mac os has this or you could do that and then and then it ran baseline tests and it spun up like vm like mini vms like on my machine i was like holy crap i was like this is bananas it was wild it was like really cool I was like, this is bananas.

Frank 31:23

Oh gosh.

James 31:29

so Anyways. Call out to that.

Frank 31:30

Sounds like a lot of subagents.

James 31:32

A lot of sub agents. And you know, the nice thing is when sub agents are just running.

Frank 31:33

Yeah.

James 31:36

school calls, or they build a script and run it, they're just waiting for the results. So it's not actually like token costs, right?

Frank 31:39

Yeah.

James 31:41

So that's fascinating. um the other thing that's really fascinating about All of this. In combination. is Like. Tiny clips. I think it's real software, Frank. I think it might be.

Frank 31:54

Uh oh.

James 31:55

real I think I may have. created real software.

Frank 31:58

real software like You're solving a legit problem for people other than yourself? or it's real software like it crossed the threshold from being like

James 32:04

Yeah.

Frank 32:08

This tool that did one thing. to like... it's a proper tool one. I could charge professionals for this tool. but What kind of... what kind of um boundary do you have in your mind?

James 32:20

I think... The first one. For sure. The second one. 70%.

Frank 32:27

Okay.

James 32:27

So i maybe the first one, 80%, this is why it's like almost, I think, right?

Frank 32:31

Ah, okay, you think.

James 32:31

Maybe I said, maybe, I don't know.

Frank 32:32

Okay.

James 32:33

So I think maybe the first one is like 80 % and the second one's like 60 or 70%. So I'll explain. I do believe that. And I know because I have a lot of people that. I'm now getting more people than ever using the software. talking about the software, recommending the software to other people like on Twitter and tagging me.

Frank 32:51

Ooh. word of mouth that that's the good stuff yeah

James 32:54

And, and then people being like, Oh, I like, I use it. And then like, I love it. Or like this other thing, or like so much that it even like inspired someone that was like tiny clips is so cool. I don't know. You can make that type of software. With vibes. and then they're like but i had this special use case for like someone was like i needed special software to edit my gopro footage in a certain way like i'm never going to implement whatever they need and they vibed it out and it was like inspired by tiny clips just for them i was like that's cool but the

Frank 33:07

ah Mm-hmm

James 33:19

The most recently last week has been like... On multiple platforms, people like, have you tried Tiny Clubs? Have you here have you heard the news? And I was like... Oh, okay.

Frank 33:26

Wow.

James 33:27

that's scary type of thing because i i launched 2 .0 in the studio mode and i've spent a lot of work on you know just performance and a bunch of other things And that's been good. The other part of it is... Yeah, it has a... ah bunch of features, right? like

Frank 33:42

Yeah.

James 33:42

I. I, um, the, we did, we use tiny clips as like a demo app and a bunch of people contributed on from the team, like Burke and Pierce and Katie and Julia. we added tons of all new cool features and then i launched studio mode Studio Mode came out, which is an all-in-one. like video editor you record your audio video it does morphs it does overlays it does

Frank 34:01

Alright. ha

James 34:05

um you know, zooms and it does all these things, records your mouse clicks, does all this stuff. And now I'm adding annotations. I'm adding...

Frank 34:13

Cheers.

James 34:13

like You can do arrows and blurring.

Frank 34:13

Hmm.

James 34:14

You can do captioning. You can do caption overlays. You can export it at different resolutions, right? You can do all this stuff.

Frank 34:19

Hmph.

James 34:20

And then I just added this agent mode. Like you can just have your agent control it and then do the thing.

Frank 34:23

Yeah.

James 34:25

Like that is. kind of crazy. Now I'm not saying it's like the world's best software, but I will say this. is I got my... subscription notice from Camtasia? And they're like, hey, your credit card needs to be updated or else we're going to cancel your subscription. And I was like. Thank you, mate.

Frank 34:42

Hmm.

James 34:42

need to cancel my subscription i don't know

Frank 34:44

Yeah.

James 34:45

There's a few things that are like lacking that it obviously does is like combining multiple of videos, but I'm like, I'm clearly on. i'm clearly on like a road here for like next steps you know so

Frank 34:55

Yeah.

James 34:56

I think I built real software. and now Might have been an accident. For better or worse, I don't know.

Frank 35:01

It's It's sounding like you have like, it's a funny time because I think like all the, um, adobe clones have been coming out and the office clones like i think people are realizing like These AIs, are they're more useful than doing stupid security audits and all that. They are actually able to generate real software. Again, putting ourselves out of business, but you know, one one step at a time.

James 35:24

Yeah.

Frank 35:24

But we'll put big businesses out of business before we put ourselves out of business. um but Yeah. um I'm really curious when you actually give up that Camtasia subscription. You know, when when you've created custom software for yourself and you can actually throw away someone else's subscription. then I think you've definitely made it. It sounds like you're almost there though. way i I don't know what you're talking about with your merging videos or any of that nonsense, but um I've used a lot of screen capture software in the past.

And you surpassed... those from a future perspective months ago.

James 36:00

um Thanks.

Frank 36:02

um so i have no clue what you're adding it sounds like i need to run this app some more and see what and craziness you've been adding to it um but i know like you basically hit um feature parity for things I used to use. back in the day. um So. I don't have to say all that. and Congratulations. And i'll I'll keep spreading the word. Keep spreading the word.

James 36:22

Spread the good news. Yeah. Well, and then I'll have, you know, I'll have a Dingus integration soon. That's for sure. I'll point it at the docs and it'll do a thing.

Frank 36:28

Yeah. You know how you and actually can tell if you've made real software is if your support email is too many to get to in one day. Like you don't actually want it. That's when you're like, oh God, I created real software. I would actually have to turn this into a business or at least get another agent just responding to emails, not writing code.

James 36:42

Yeah. Yeah. Ah. Um, Well.

Frank 36:51

Well, that's fantastic.

James 36:53

Let's talk about a few more things and then you got to be off.

Frank 36:56

Mm-hmm

James 36:55

Let's skip this next one on Android. Let's go straight through the new gate because this one came out and I thought this was pretty cool because you were talking about skills and bundling.

Frank 36:57

Okay. Ooh. Yeah.

James 37:03

But now as a .NET developer... But do we just put everything in a nougat package?

Frank 37:07

I think so. Yeah.

James 37:08

I think so.

Frank 37:08

Yeah, I think we should put videos. and We should but just make it a whole pirating service. No, I'm just kidding. um Don't do that. Probably against the terms of services, I assume. Anyway, what you can do now, James, do you like skills? I like skills. We all like skills.

James 37:22

Love is cool.

Frank 37:24

Do you release a library and people only know how to use the surface features of that library? Probably, if you're like me, because you don't document the library well. Well, what if you could bundle skills with your NuGet libraries?

James 37:31

o

Frank 37:37

And there is official support for this now.

James 37:36

Ooh.

Frank 37:41

And it's...

James 37:41

Hmm.

Frank 37:42

pretty dang clever because now um you can put markdown files john gruber must be so happy he's taken over the world you can put markdown files into your new jays

James 37:54

Oh my gosh.

Frank 37:54

And then um I... Probably they just get auto-included. I don't know how to not include them, but if they're they're in your new J's. I don't know which agents support this. To be honest, um hopefully they'll all pick it up eventually. Anthropic will probably be the last one because they're the they're the bit boneheads of the group. But I'm sure all the good harnesses out there will just pick up all the skills.

that libraries developers library developers put in there. Which I think is fantastic because you can expose the more interesting, um well, obviously take care of the normal use cases. for the library, but then some of the more edgy use cases of the library. I also get a tiny bit nervous that people are going to put 500 skills with, you know, 8 million tokens each into my libraries and then I will have to filter them out. but

Overall, I think this is... Pretty dang cool. So I'm sure you could have, I didn't double check, but I think you can have skills only nougats. but I think you can also just have skills for library nougats and things like that. Anyway, really cool to see the nougat team.

James 39:01

Good call.

Frank 39:03

Um, making this basically easy. for all of us.

James 39:07

This is great. One thing that I want to point out is not just for libraries, right? Because you can ship full blown. Perhaps.

Frank 39:12

Sure.

James 39:14

You know, I have outro kit, which is in a.

Frank 39:14

Yeah, why not? DNX that, baby. yeah

James 39:16

DNX it. DNX all of it. I mean, literally my... I have the DNX MCP server for Tiny Clips. Like I could just put skills inside of there that are there and readily available. I think this is nice because a lot of times you see your agents having to go like inspect the NuGet package and inspect the IL, go pull the Remys and do this stuff.

Frank 39:26

Mhm.

James 39:34

It's like, oh, it's all right there, right? Which I think is nice.

Frank 39:36

Yeah.

James 39:36

I can see SQLite being like super. nice for this. And I'll call it in the blog, they call out like .NET Inspect.

Frank 39:44

Hmm.

James 39:44

that's a great one right like here's how you do used on an inspect for example or They have all their .NET package skills. And you can imagine like the Nuke and MCP, like all these things that are. coming in so i really like This is really cool. It seems like an interesting attack factor, like they call it in the blog, but I'm also and interested in like. you know. How it. gets deployed. However, that being said, It doesn't seem like there's anything to stop us today from just like going and doing this for sure. so I guess I'm in.

Um,

Frank 40:14

Oh, i'm I'm in. Yeah. It makes perfect sense because personally, I don't shop around for skills.

James 40:18

Yeah.

Frank 40:21

I'm kind of a bad agent user in that perspective. I never go to the marketplaces. Part of me just doesn't remember to. Like if I download someone's library, like you said, I just have it say like interrogate the IL, figure out what the stupid library can do and all that kind of stuff. um So this is nice because it's just automagic. I'll take that any day versus me. going skill shopping, even with all the like. All the clever ways they've made that. I don't like clicking the settings icon in any of these agents. I just don't like to. But if it's just included by default and people aren't abusing it. like i said putting one megabyte skills in for all of them then great.

James 41:02

Dude, I'm going to do this right now inside of outro kit because I ship it.

Frank 41:04

ah

James 41:05

I was thinking we'd create some great skills and include them. in our package.

Frank 41:10

Yeah.

James 41:11

Like this

Frank 41:12

We need a... a skill builder skill i mean most actually most of the agents have that so yeah you can

James 41:16

Yeah.

Frank 41:19

Just say, yeah.

James 41:19

Now, bam.

Frank 41:21

Did you?

James 41:21

Go do it. I will say, I mean, yeah, I mean, why not just do it? I want to see what happens. Like, let's do it. So.

Frank 41:26

Did you point it at the blog entry first? because

James 41:28

Of course I did. Yeah.

Frank 41:30

Yeah, because this is all pretty hot off the presses.

James 41:29

I was like, go do it. Figure it out.

Frank 41:32

I think and none of the models will have been trained on this.

James 41:33

Yeah. No, but I think if they're just there and they can be I don't know where they're gonna unfold to but I'm that's really cool That's a good one

Frank 41:43

Yeah.

James 41:43

Um, Well, I'll ask Rich. He but he authored this blog post.

Frank 41:47

Yeah, it was good to see Rich's name on a blog.

James 41:47

so Better tell me.

Frank 41:50

I love it.

James 41:51

Yeah.

Frank 41:51

Whenever I see his name on a blog, I'm like, oh, this is going to be something interesting. Mr. Lander.

James 41:56

Totally. I'm Throwing this at... Baby Luna on X High. Let's go. Um, The copilot fusion is not available on the the the web yet. It's just auto. so um So, but soon I'm hoping that they put it on there because that'd be nice.

Frank 42:06

Okay. Mm hmm.

James 42:10

Um, We'll talk about our good friends over at .NET this week.

Frank 42:14

Hehehe.

James 42:14

Starting tomorrow is .NET Conf, .NET slash Conf.

Frank 42:16

Yeah.

James 42:18

um I vibed out some pretty sweet software, which is the cool social wall. um as well.

Frank 42:23

Sweet.

James 42:23

So you can see that I've been working on that this week, but well done at 11. Um, is off to the races. You may have been getting some emails from your friends over at Microsoft Azure telling you that you're. Versions of .NET. uh are reaching so end of support soon you better be updating them puppies

Frank 42:38

oh No, oh no

James 42:40

And then I, as soon as I got the email, I got the email for my functions and I was like. hey I was like, hey. i got this email can you go audit i said can you go audit every single azure

Frank 42:50

o ge

James 42:51

like deployment and it went and looked at all every single github repo that had deployments to azure and then did a whole like wrap on i guess i could have connected the azure mcp that or the cli would have been better but i just did it in the cloud from my phone i did it from my phone

Frank 42:52

Oh no. Okay, okay. Yeah. ah

James 43:03

right so i was like just go and do it And then it like went off and it was like, hey. you're good you're undone at 10 except for this one you should probably update but but it was like

Frank 43:10

ah

James 43:11

but it'll keep working. But...

Frank 43:13

I wonder if you you you must have more repos than me. I would never think to run that kind of thing, but yeah, I probably should.

James 43:19

I got 600. Yeah.

Frank 43:21

Oh my god, yeah, you have more than me.

James 43:24

yeah just tell it just do the thing it's really fast because like i don't know it's indexed and stuff I don't know.

Frank 43:25

Just do it. Okay.

James 43:29

Or you can just say like, Hey.

Frank 43:30

Yeah.

James 43:31

um Especially if you know them. The one thing I did recently was I did some audit and I was like, Hey, I want you to do an audit of. the last 100. you know repos that i've deployed from or whatever like go do a thing

Frank 43:43

Mm hmm. Yeah.

James 43:45

But obviously, but those might not be it. so you know you'd have to go figure it out but just tell it to search every single repo it'll it'll figure it out

Frank 43:49

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had to... um I was... ah Sorry, so to be clear to everyone, um it's .NET 8 and 9 are reaching end of life. um

James 44:02

Wow, like... In four days.

Frank 44:04

Yeah.

James 44:05

Ah!

Frank 44:04

Hi.

James 44:06

Wow.

Frank 44:07

Get converting.

James 44:06

Hello.

Frank 44:08

This one I'm not too worried about because I find getting up to .NET 10 is nuts. really that hard there's not too much from uh um

James 44:14

Yeah.

Frank 44:16

from us. Dev perspective, big difference between 8 and 10. Obviously, there's a lot of internal improvements and all that kind of stuff. But I find upgrading to be pretty easy between them, especially for the Xcode 27 SDK. I had to upgrade to 10 .0 .402 SDK.

James 44:33

Oh yeah. That was fun.

Frank 44:35

I love doing like that. oh Not really, but locking all my workloads to a very specific version so I can support the right SDK and all that.

James 44:43

Yeah.

Frank 44:45

so i just did the 10 to 10 migration. And I actually had some build failures because I compile with warnings as errors. And so whenever they improve the null reference annotations... They're not technically breaking changes because they're warnings, but to people like me who have warnings set to errors, it's kind of a breaking to change. It's not too big of a deal because it's finding bugs in your code. You assumed that thing was...

never going to be null. Now it can be null.

James 45:16

know

Frank 45:16

It's annoying, but... um Those are kind of the... Those are the changes I'm happy to make. I'm not happy, but I'm okay making because technically it should make my code better. or less crashy, all that kind of stuff. But I found these upgrades to be. Pretty easy. The only thing I regret is I was just telling some people to just use .NET 8 because I'm like, it's LTS. I didn't realize what year it was.

So I should have been telling people, just go to 10. Go to 10. Don't bother with 8. Just go to 10. So I need to backtrack a few things I told some people.

James 45:43

Yeah, let's go to 10. 10 10 10 go go go yeah i mean and emails just go to 11 i mean it is s sts support so it's 24 months.

Frank 45:47

But. Yeah. Is it?

James 45:53

So like. I don't know.

Frank 45:55

Yeah.

James 45:55

Why not? ah

Frank 45:56

Nah, I'll wait for 12.

James 45:57

What's the difference?

Frank 45:58

I'm just kidding.

James 45:59

Hmm. and Go, go, go.

Frank 45:59

We'll see.

James 46:00

So we'll find out. Well, ah you know, .NET Conf is on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, I think. So check it out at .NET slash Conf or just go to .NET. net .microsoft .com and or any of the .NET Conf websites.

Frank 46:10

nice

James 46:12

there's like Five of them.

Frank 46:14

Oh, geez.

James 46:15

But yeah, it starts um tomorrow. So if you're listening to this on the 1st, tomorrow, November 10th. with a scott hanselman keynote that should be fun then we got a what's new in c sharp Then we got our. tried and true state of ASP .NET Core and Blazor. oh moving .net ahead of time with chat you know that's going to be good wow that's funny We have a win forms. uh session amazing with klaus we gotta

Frank 46:38

Woo! Whew! Never die, win forms.

James 46:41

.NET AI Stack, .NET MAUI with Gerald, C Sharp Dev Kit 11. They've made a lot of changes. Things are popping down. um they There's a whole thing on how they improved. MSBuild? with multithreaded.

Frank 46:54

Oh gosh. Oh, that's good.

James 46:56

That's cool.

Frank 46:57

I was just complaining.

James 46:57

Yeah.

Frank 46:58

like And let's build needs more multi-threading. That's funny. I was complaining about that today.

James 47:02

There's a Maddie Montequilla talk on Aspire, of course. This is gonna be... This is coming out of the woodwork

Frank 47:10

Yeah.

James 47:10

Barry Dorans. The security guy.

Frank 47:12

Oh.

James 47:13

He's got a talk called Too Secure.

Frank 47:13

Okay.

James 47:15

Too curmudgeon. curmudgeon only. Uh,

Frank 47:19

I always skip the securities, but maybe I'll watch that one.

James 47:21

That will be entertaining. It's going to talk about, I think he's going to talk about SVE. Best feed, whatever they're called.

Frank 47:26

Okay. Yeah.

James 47:27

We have a get a copilot talk down at 11 numerics with Tanner. That's cool.

Frank 47:31

Ooh, I like those.

James 47:32

Um, another aspire talk while down at runtime v next

Frank 47:36

Uh oh.

James 47:37

What? Well, man.

Frank 47:37

We just got to 11. See, I told you, just wait for 12.

James 47:41

Yeah. Post quantum. Cryptography, that's crazy.

Frank 47:44

Buzzwords.

James 47:44

And then bringing .NET Run, Test, and Watch to .NET MAUI. A whole lot of good stuff there. Then we got Visual Studio Keynotes the next day. blazer server mcp we got a whole mcp talk with styles even that's cool windows apps with winui that's cool agentic UI future. So day two is really like. Pretty AI-y.

Frank 48:03

Okay.

James 48:02

That's cool. I'm into that. CodeGen. A little Maui talk with Gerald. No XAML required. That's cool.

Frank 48:10

Yeah.

James 48:10

Some Azure talks.

Frank 48:11

I'll see you.

James 48:11

That's cool. C sharp file-based apps turned up to 11 with Damien, of course, foundry EF core 11, a whole bunch of stuff. And then the next two days after that are all. are all Community Talks. So day three and four are all community.

Frank 48:25

Okay. The fun ones.

James 48:26

Yep. ah Fun ones. That's right. All right, man, I'm going to let you get to the airport. That's going to do it for this week's Merge Conflict.

Frank 48:32

Bye.

James 48:33

Let us know how you're done at Confluent by heading to mergeconflict .fm or go to our YouTube. youtube .com forward slash app Merge conflict FM. We're doing pretty great over there. If you are so inclined and want to. Like and subscribe and smash that. like button. We are at 957 subscribers on our road to one K by the end of the year. we got some stuff there and we're doing pretty good we got lots of watch minutes and hours You know, we're we're never going to hit the requirements that YouTube requires for us to monetize.

But we are two thirds the way there, which is pretty good. So keep up coming, people.

Frank 49:10

Come on, everyone. now.

James 49:11

Yeah, I mean... it's a podcast getting some listen, so I appreciate it.

Frank 49:15

Cool.

James 49:15

ah That's gonna do it for this week's March conflict. Until next time.

Frank 49:18

And I'm Frank Krueger. Thanks for watching and listening.

James 49:21

Peace.